WEBVTT

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The next two weeks , we're gonna be

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talking about some published um

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strategic uh documents , strategic

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visions of the Air Force that

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specifically call out consciousness .

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Um Talk about maybe this whole

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consciousness business can add value

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for autonomous systems . So we'll talk

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about that informally uh informally

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this week , next week will also be

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informal . But we're having uh Act

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three is um the Air Force's Autonomy

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Capability Team Act three's Chief

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Technology Officer , Doctor Mike

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Mendenhall will come and talk um more

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specifics about the types of things

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here in Space Force . Thank you . Uh

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The different types of things like the

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different kinds of flexibilities that

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we'd be looking for where that we think

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that consciousness might give us some

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hints , the types of flexibilities that

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we're missing in autonomous systems .

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But we want in autonomous systems and

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um a lot of things are written out in

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autonomous horizons . Volume two , I've ,

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I've uh went through it again and I

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still find it's um you know , maybe

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it's not correct in all accounts , but

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I think it's a pretty good outline of

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um the different areas that we should

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be thinking about . Uh looking at ,

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looking at the different things that we

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talk about in this meeting . So I'll

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try to walk through um some of those

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things today just to kind of prep us

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for , for a more in depth conversation

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next week . Again , all of this is

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pretty informal . Uh After that , we've

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got some different talks from some

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colleagues who've been coming for a

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long time to our meetings . Uh and then

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going into October . Now , I think

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we're gonna try to start to talk about

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integrated information theory and reach

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out to some scholars in that field .

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There's a new new iteration of that out .

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Iit 4.0 And so we'll try to get nitty

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and gritty in terms of what's been

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updated since the last iteration and

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how that might add value to um

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accomplishing some of the , the needs

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of the Air Force that we'll talk about

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over the next couple of weeks . So

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that's sort of the calendar of what's

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gonna be happening the next month and

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where we're looking towards after that .

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Um What else do I want to say ?

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Oh , so yeah , this is gonna be very uh

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informal . I don't have all that much

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content planned . I kind of took some

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key figures from the reading this week

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Autonomous Horizons volume two and put

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it into a slide deck . I could talk to

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it , but I'm hoping that this can be um

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conversational and in that spirit , uh

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we often like to start these kinds of

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meetings with a BYOQ a bring your own

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question . So there was some email

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traffic I was following uh between Cap

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and Mike . I don't know if there's

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anything in there you guys wanted to

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voice . I see , Doug has a hand up ,

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has his hand up and all are welcome for

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this . Bring your own question today .

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Burning questions about consciousness

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from your , your readings this week .

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Doug . Hi there um giving

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the neural way of the world with

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your background , Kevin . Um But from

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that , expanding out to everything ,

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I do mean everything would be fun to

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take 10 minutes somewhere along the way

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in the near future and say , what do we

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mean ? What do we really mean by

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consciousness ? It can mean so

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many things , but talk about it in

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general terms as opposed to

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everybody throwing it out to $10 words

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from the different disciplines , we all

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bring together as a team because I've

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loved what we have done so far . But

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now I'm saying to myself , what do we

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mean by consciousness ? And does it

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happen when it doesn't appear to have

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the attention of what memory and

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attention seem to do ? But yet I still

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would argue things are going on in

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memory that we are conscious of , but

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we are not attending to , I'll stop

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there . That's I agree with Doug .

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We're talking about building conscious

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air force systems . What does that mean ?

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Well , what I can say is what um

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Autonomous Horizons . Volume two says

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it means , and I actually think in that

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document , in different sections of the

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document , you can feel that sort of

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tension of um exactly what Doug was

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talking about , which I think is

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exactly where the fields at , which is

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in short , we don't know for sure the

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answer to this , but we are at the

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forefront of those discussions of does

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it , do you need attention ? Can what's

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happening outside of attention ? The

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way we've defined consciousness in here

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is um uh the generation of quality ,

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the generation of experience , uh uh a

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feeling of what it is like , but

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there's definitely this tension which I

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think we'll walk through in these

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slides if we get to them . If not ,

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that's OK of um uh uh what ned block

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calls access consciousness versus

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phenomenal consciousness we've talked a

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lot about in here . And um yeah , II ,

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I don't have a concrete um definition

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besides the generation of qualia is ,

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is what we're stating is what we want .

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And then I'm gonna kind of talk through

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uh a little bit of what the limitations

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are and how these words have been used .

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Um But Doug , I mean , it's hard to

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give a , a really short answer to that .

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Besides , I find value in thinking of

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this access consciousness versus

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phenomenal consciousness and , and a

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lot of people like uh Mike Ensley Dan

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Dennett , Michael Graziano , um who've

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come and presented at our meetings this

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week , I talked a lot about this kind

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of uh access consciousness in Medlock

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terms or the , the uh quality of self .

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Um And I submit , they've left out the

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what it is like . And so uh maybe the

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answer is trying to bring those

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together . Um But I , I don't know ,

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that's just a little bit more detail to ,

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to your question , but it's not really

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an answer doug , right ? But my

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question has a certain modality to it

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for all of us , with our diversity of

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thought and educational training to

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think of this . Now , in explaining it

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for the common human , as opposed to

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using our $10 words from our

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disciplines , you know , all these big

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words from our different ways of

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training , whether we're

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neuroscientists or A I scientists or

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whatever . Oh , also a second

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topic of , uh thinking first has

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happened . I'm gonna contact switch . I

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don't know if Cassie sent it out

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yesterday . But there is a , an event

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that is uh something everybody will

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want to enjoy because it's not just

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deep science . It's about , well , the

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title of the event is A I

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for Humanity and the

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thinkers , I don't call them speakers .

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The thinkers . I think everybody here

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would love to hear from them . By the

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way , one of the thinkers is our own

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cap . But did , did Cathy get something

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else ? She did Doug ? It didn't , I , I

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should have , um , advertised that at

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the beginning . I do have that flyer of

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the big questions in A I and I saw

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Carla's on it caps , you know , Eric

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Horvitz , Jan Laco . That's gonna be a

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great man . Tom Mitchell . Thank you .

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Um Oh , here we go . We can

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um attach this to the quest invite for

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next week just to uh get the word out .

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But this is really all about the title

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that's highlighted in the bright white

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letters A I for Humanity .

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And these people could cle clearly go

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very , very deep . Each one is serious

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world Class . But instead we wanna talk

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about what we can do to help humanity

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people . So it's gonna be slightly

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different . For example , Tom Mitchell ,

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he speaks at the World Economic Forum ,

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he speaks at the UN . They wanna hear

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what is this thing called A I ? So

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we're already thinking about what each

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person is gonna argue about without

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going into the deep end . And the $10

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words , this will be probably the best

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ever . Uh big question of A I , since

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the whole world wants to know it ,

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we're gonna try and talk about it . You

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know , there's so much to it . But uh

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it's a good , I used to stub your toe

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if you want to say it'll be on

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Halloween , it works out that way

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and it's two o'clock in the afternoon ,

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Eastern Standard Time and it's like we

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always do , these are not speakers ,

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it's an open forum for cap and the

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other five people to argue with each

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other . And then at the end , we'll

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have another 10 or 15 minutes for the

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audience to raise questions . But it's

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already created a buzz because of the

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real focus of this event is about

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humanity . Yeah , that's great , Doug ,

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thanks for bringing that up . Thank you

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for everybody listening . You know , so

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we wanna spread the word . And uh the

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last time we held something like this ,

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we had an attendance was uh 1100 people

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in Zoom . Uh Robert , I saw you had

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your hand up . Maybe that was in

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response to defining consciousness

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which I stumbled through as , as , you

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know , raw experience or something like

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that . Can you hear me ? Ok . Yes , sir .

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I was just gonna mention you guys know

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much more about consciousness than I do

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I think . But I've been drilling down

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on it for uh in a uh particular focused

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way and I'll offer to present to you

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guys in the near future . I'm not quite

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there yet , but um I'm just gonna throw

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it out that the stuff I've looked at ,

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there's at least 32 is a number . I

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remember various different theories of

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consciousness that are major theories

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in the literature , over 32 different

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theories of consciousness . So it seems

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like we're having a hell of a hard time

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getting a hand on even defining it ,

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let alone doing research on it . So

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it's not surprising that that uh people

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go back and forth and so on . Um , over .

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Yeah , I would love whenever you're

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ready for that presentation . That

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would be great . Robert . I see you

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turn your camera on . I don't know if

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that was on purpose . So C A has , uh ,

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has the correct answer . I think I'm

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looking for here , please . So let me ,

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uh , I'll actually , I'll try to do two

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questions at once . So you pointed out

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that ancient Mike and I Mike Young and

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I have been uh bantering back and forth

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this week . Um And he correctly as

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always , uh you know , tries to pin me

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down on intelligence and consciousness

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and not to conflate the two . And he's

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absolutely right . I don't want to do

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that . So if you want me to define

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consciousness , I'm going to start by

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giving you my definition of

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intelligence , which leads to , you

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know , my definition of consciousness ,

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which leads to why I tie those two

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things together . OK . So let me hit

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those three points . So first

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intelligence is the ability of a system

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to uh create knowledge . And , and I

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use that word knowledge , not the

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knowledge , data , information , wisdom ,

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not in that taxonomy , but knowledge is

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just the word I'm using to capture the

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idea of , of this , this structured

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representation which allows the

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organism to create meaning . All right .

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So I don't care if it's rules , I don't

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care if it's connections and neural map .

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It doesn't matter to me . It's what the

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entity uses to create mean and thus

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decide what is the state of the world ,

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maybe what action to take . But , but

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intelligence is all about this ability

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to create knowledge and store it away

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in some manner where you can bring it

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to bear when appropriate . That's

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intelligence . Now , separate from that

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break break , don't connect it yet .

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Consciousness as ex exactly what Kevin

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said , I , I'm a , I'm a student of ,

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of John Searle . Consciousness is

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nothing more than the creation of

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qualia . Now that doesn't really help

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you much because what the hell is a Q .

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So you know , this is where we always

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run into trouble because all you can do

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is point to examples and that's OK

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because all of us have and can relate

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to those examples . Let's start there .

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So when I use the quality word , you

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know , when you look at , at this

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shield that my son gave me some years

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back , you know , the red on it evokes

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a mental image uh in your , in your

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mind , you have this mental image and

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there's this distinction of the red

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versus the blue versus the white . OK ?

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Those those discerned differences are

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different qualia which are evoked in

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your internal representation as a

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result of some external stimulus coming

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through your sensors . And then you

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have this as Kevin pointed out a

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conscious experience , the primitives

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of those conscious experiences are Kia .

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OK ? So I I gave you intelligence . Now ,

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I gave you consciousness . Now , wait ,

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wait 11 more thing and then , then you

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can beat me up , Mike . So the uh the

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third point here is that in , in my

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current model , the whole cash value of

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consciousness is that experience is how

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you structure the knowledge so you can

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later bring it to bear . Thus , it

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brings the ability to have robust

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intelligence . So that's sort of the

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three steps . Go ahead . Ancient Mike ,

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sir , you're muted , Mike . We didn't

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catch any of that . You , you got your

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mic off microphone off

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Mike . Mike Young , you're still muted .

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There we go . How about now ? OK . I I

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thought I heard you give a circular

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definition explaining , defining one by

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the other one . You said , what ,

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which one creates knowledge and meaning

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that's intelligent , right ? Knowledge

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is the ability of an entity to create

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knowledge and you use the knowledge to

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create meaning . OK ? Now what I mean ,

15:09.580 --> 15:12.049
consciousness , you said consciousness

15:12.059 --> 15:15.919
is meaning the

15:15.929 --> 15:18.151
two terms in , in terms of each other ,

15:18.530 --> 15:20.752
they're , they're absolutely circular .

15:20.752 --> 15:22.974
All words are defined in terms of other

15:22.974 --> 15:25.086
words , you can't get around that . I

15:25.086 --> 15:25.080
mean , that's sort of the way that's

15:25.090 --> 15:27.419
why we're limited . But I think if you ,

15:27.760 --> 15:30.489
if you , if you try not to , you know ,

15:30.640 --> 15:32.807
in a legal sense , parse the words too

15:32.809 --> 15:35.219
carefully , you can get the sequences

15:35.229 --> 15:37.285
of thoughts that I'm having here and

15:37.285 --> 15:39.285
that is you have entities which are

15:39.285 --> 15:41.396
able to create knowledge which allows

15:41.396 --> 15:43.451
them to do things more efficiently ,

15:43.451 --> 15:45.618
better , maybe do them at all . And oh

15:45.618 --> 15:47.562
by the way , we're also making the

15:47.562 --> 15:49.729
premise that consciousness contributes

15:49.729 --> 15:51.896
to that creation of the knowledge . In

15:51.896 --> 15:53.896
fact , in my opinion , it's the key

15:53.896 --> 15:55.785
breakthrough nature had in how to

15:55.785 --> 15:57.729
structure its knowledge so that it

15:57.729 --> 15:59.951
could make robust , flexible critters .

15:59.951 --> 16:01.896
And so that's , that's the way I'm

16:01.896 --> 16:04.118
tying the two is that in , in , in that

16:04.118 --> 16:06.909
sense that that is the , the , the

16:06.919 --> 16:09.419
structure by which all your memories

16:09.429 --> 16:13.190
are uh scaffolded on . And , and thus ,

16:13.200 --> 16:15.200
that is the source of your robust ,

16:15.200 --> 16:17.690
flexible intelligence . I don't think

16:17.700 --> 16:19.756
you have to find consciousness , but

16:19.756 --> 16:21.700
I'll leave it there . I mean , you

16:21.700 --> 16:23.859
define it as meaning when you define

16:23.869 --> 16:26.369
intelligence as creating meaning . No ,

16:26.380 --> 16:28.580
no , I I define consciousness exactly

16:28.590 --> 16:31.200
as Kevin did and as John Searle does as

16:31.210 --> 16:34.299
this , this inner experience . So , you

16:34.309 --> 16:36.476
know , it's the redness and the shield

16:36.476 --> 16:38.880
versus the blueness . It's , it's the

16:38.890 --> 16:40.960
annoyance I have when I , when I'm

16:40.969 --> 16:43.191
playing with my grandsons and the , and

16:43.191 --> 16:45.302
the love I have when I'm playing with

16:45.302 --> 16:47.358
my granddaughter , you know , so all

16:47.358 --> 16:49.691
the pieces of that internal experiences ,

16:49.691 --> 16:51.469
those are individual qualia and

16:51.469 --> 16:53.636
consciousness is the creation of those

16:53.636 --> 16:55.691
experiences , qualia . And so that's

16:55.691 --> 16:57.580
what consciousness is . Now , the

16:57.580 --> 16:59.802
question becomes is , you know , why do

16:59.802 --> 17:02.080
you have that ? What is its cash value ?

17:02.080 --> 17:04.136
And what I'm suggesting to you is it

17:04.136 --> 17:06.191
cash value ? Is it takes all of your

17:06.191 --> 17:08.413
exper everything that's going on in the

17:08.413 --> 17:10.247
world and puts it in a form this

17:10.247 --> 17:12.469
sensory motor world model with emotions

17:12.469 --> 17:14.636
and moods and senses of agencies . And

17:14.636 --> 17:16.802
that , that representation is what you

17:16.802 --> 17:19.025
use to store away as memories which you

17:19.025 --> 17:21.358
then is the source of your intelligence .

17:22.410 --> 17:24.969
I'll be quiet after this but you still

17:24.979 --> 17:27.312
haven't said why you need consciousness .

17:27.312 --> 17:29.257
Everything you describe , I , I do

17:29.257 --> 17:31.423
regularly with computers . I represent

17:31.423 --> 17:33.423
knowledge . I use that knowledge to

17:33.423 --> 17:36.750
change values . Uh I don't see where

17:36.760 --> 17:38.927
consciousness comes to play , but I'll

17:38.927 --> 17:41.204
let it go and never let it , let it go .

17:41.204 --> 17:43.316
Mike don't ever let it go . The point

17:43.316 --> 17:45.149
I'm trying to make to you is the

17:45.149 --> 17:47.149
conscious , the century motor world

17:47.149 --> 17:49.204
model which we all experience as our

17:49.204 --> 17:51.093
conscious lives . You know , that

17:51.093 --> 17:53.149
representation is in fact the key to

17:53.149 --> 17:55.204
the way you represent your knowledge

17:55.204 --> 17:57.260
that you store away . That's why you

17:57.260 --> 17:58.982
have consciousness and it puts

17:58.982 --> 18:00.982
everything in this integrated world

18:00.982 --> 18:03.204
model . Now , you're absolutely right .

18:03.204 --> 18:05.482
I can create an integrated world model .

18:05.482 --> 18:05.464
In fact , we , we do that all the time

18:05.474 --> 18:08.459
when we make A I . But what we missed

18:08.469 --> 18:10.339
was we didn't try to capture the

18:10.349 --> 18:12.359
structure of the qualia of the

18:12.369 --> 18:14.536
conscious experience . And that's what

18:14.536 --> 18:16.979
S3 Q theory is all about . Figure out

18:16.989 --> 18:18.767
the engineering aspects of this

18:18.767 --> 18:20.933
conscious experience . You put that in

18:20.933 --> 18:22.822
your A I world models . And now ,

18:22.822 --> 18:24.878
although they won't feel the way you

18:24.878 --> 18:27.045
feel , they won't have Q like you have

18:27.045 --> 18:28.989
our hope is that they will be more

18:28.989 --> 18:32.900
robustly intelligent . So

18:32.910 --> 18:34.521
you introduced a new type of

18:34.521 --> 18:36.743
representation . I still don't see it ,

18:36.743 --> 18:38.854
but I'll go out for the moment . I'll

18:38.854 --> 18:39.854
pass . OK .

18:42.589 --> 18:44.478
What was that last point , Mike ?

18:47.599 --> 18:49.488
I don't see anything that I can't

18:49.488 --> 18:51.920
represent in a computer . He's saying

18:51.930 --> 18:53.819
there's some , you know , there's

18:53.819 --> 18:55.874
quality of representation that can't

18:55.874 --> 18:58.041
get represented and I wanna know why I

18:58.041 --> 19:01.859
wanna know what it is . Yeah , I , I uh

19:02.810 --> 19:04.977
I think when I start to dig down these

19:04.977 --> 19:07.088
things in terms of reading autonomous

19:07.088 --> 19:09.829
horizons , I feel like a lot of a , I ,

19:09.839 --> 19:12.189
people think we're a lot closer and

19:12.199 --> 19:14.366
might even have to start to admit that

19:14.530 --> 19:16.752
the way , think they think about things

19:16.752 --> 19:18.760
that these machines are already

19:18.790 --> 19:21.068
conscious that , you know , that might ,

19:21.068 --> 19:23.290
I , I , which I , I don't uh that's too

19:23.290 --> 19:25.739
far away from it for me , but um maybe

19:25.750 --> 19:27.694
we'll back into that today when we

19:27.694 --> 19:29.694
start to walk through some of these

19:29.694 --> 19:32.030
things more . Uh I think uh Doug and

19:32.040 --> 19:34.550
then uh Robert . OK . Great .

19:36.010 --> 19:39.140
Imagine if you will . This has happened

19:39.150 --> 19:41.380
more than once . Uh and this is

19:41.390 --> 19:44.859
relative to Cap and Mike in this

19:44.869 --> 19:48.369
current conversation . So we're sitting

19:48.380 --> 19:52.219
in a uh weekly thinking session

19:52.229 --> 19:55.020
with Marvin Minsky and several

19:55.030 --> 19:58.119
wonderful phd students . And more than

19:58.130 --> 20:00.540
once Marvin would turn to the students

20:00.550 --> 20:02.661
and say , well , we have two or three

20:02.661 --> 20:05.250
good series , do one more .

20:06.420 --> 20:08.430
There is no one way to think about

20:08.439 --> 20:11.750
consciousness ? Nor is there one way to

20:11.760 --> 20:14.369
think about choir ? We probably will

20:14.380 --> 20:17.670
have several diverse ways of doing it .

20:17.810 --> 20:20.250
And that's the power of society and

20:20.260 --> 20:23.550
mind . You have multiple ways . It may

20:23.560 --> 20:26.290
mean something to somebody whether it's

20:26.319 --> 20:28.910
the way we describe consciousness . I

20:28.920 --> 20:31.630
don't think we should have a definitive

20:31.640 --> 20:34.550
definition of what is consciousness .

20:34.560 --> 20:36.989
We have many different types that we

20:37.000 --> 20:39.390
bond together and we can use them

20:39.400 --> 20:43.300
because they are very keyword flexible .

20:44.069 --> 20:47.359
Now , um There was something that I

20:47.369 --> 20:51.300
refer to as the Winsy signifying

20:51.489 --> 20:54.810
hypothesis . The thing signifying

20:54.819 --> 20:58.579
hypothesis says everything is a thing

21:00.130 --> 21:02.709
if you look at that from a mathematical

21:02.719 --> 21:04.810
point of view and that's one of

21:04.819 --> 21:07.130
Marvin's strongest points . He did his

21:07.140 --> 21:10.030
phd in math at Princeton a long time

21:10.040 --> 21:14.020
ago . Everything is a thing .

21:14.380 --> 21:17.780
If you play that out , it's circular .

21:18.300 --> 21:20.780
So something being circular where

21:20.790 --> 21:24.619
whether it's our neural circuits or

21:24.630 --> 21:26.609
whether it's this thing , you find

21:26.619 --> 21:30.199
hypothesis , it's circular is a

21:30.209 --> 21:33.579
valuable thing to think about . And if

21:33.589 --> 21:36.319
you read his theories of what's called

21:36.329 --> 21:40.219
level bands , level bands has

21:40.229 --> 21:42.910
the need for circular behavior in

21:42.920 --> 21:45.800
representation along with the other

21:45.810 --> 21:48.569
theories that complemented . So that's

21:48.579 --> 21:50.959
my thought with Mike's question about

21:50.969 --> 21:53.979
circular . Uh it's necessary

21:54.439 --> 21:57.060
and I wanted to circumvent the idea

21:57.069 --> 21:58.625
that we're trying to define

21:58.630 --> 22:01.510
consciousness . We should have multiple

22:01.520 --> 22:04.910
points of view of consciousness and

22:04.920 --> 22:08.250
some of them , well , humans like to be

22:08.260 --> 22:11.189
self aware . So we are attending to

22:11.430 --> 22:14.609
some aspects of what the hardware

22:14.619 --> 22:16.939
called the brain , the chemistry into

22:16.949 --> 22:19.670
the brain is doing in all that

22:20.109 --> 22:22.670
activation . And the fact that what we

22:22.680 --> 22:24.902
think we're thinking about is about two

22:24.902 --> 22:26.958
or three seconds ahead of what we're

22:26.958 --> 22:29.420
thinking about . We drive our cars ,

22:29.430 --> 22:33.140
for example , in the future , not the

22:33.150 --> 22:36.180
present , we are aware of what we were

22:36.189 --> 22:39.650
gonna do rela relative to the highway

22:39.660 --> 22:42.109
and all the signs and whatever else .

22:42.349 --> 22:46.300
Three seconds from now . So you have

22:46.310 --> 22:48.920
to have multiple perspectives that are

22:48.930 --> 22:52.199
very attended to and others which there

22:52.209 --> 22:54.599
doesn't seem to be any attention to .

22:54.880 --> 22:57.930
But believe me , it is , it's just we

22:57.939 --> 23:00.106
don't know what to do about that yet ,

23:00.119 --> 23:02.400
but I'll leave that to Kevin and others

23:02.410 --> 23:04.810
to show us how the brain from a

23:04.819 --> 23:07.640
chemical point of view does achieve

23:07.650 --> 23:10.439
such wonderful things . I'll stop there .

23:14.959 --> 23:17.729
Did I mess up something ? No , I'm just

23:17.739 --> 23:19.850
trying to process if I had a response

23:19.850 --> 23:21.795
to the chemical point of view . Uh

23:21.795 --> 23:25.760
Robert . Yes . Can you

23:25.770 --> 23:29.160
hear me ? Ok . Yes , sir . I um I'm

23:29.170 --> 23:31.226
probably gonna regret doing this but

23:31.239 --> 23:33.461
I'm not prepared to present yet , maybe

23:33.461 --> 23:35.969
in about a month . But this is making

23:35.979 --> 23:38.090
me wanna kind of tea , throw out some

23:38.090 --> 23:40.900
teasers here . So I think if you read

23:40.910 --> 23:43.229
across diverse literatures and it

23:43.239 --> 23:47.219
requires a lot of hard digging and I'll

23:47.229 --> 23:49.451
be presenting this in maybe a few weeks

23:49.451 --> 23:51.670
or whatever , whatever is comfortable

23:52.640 --> 23:55.359
um is strong evidence that our

23:55.369 --> 23:57.819
conscious does not really do anything ,

23:57.829 --> 23:59.773
it doesn't make any decisions , it

23:59.773 --> 24:03.069
doesn't evaluate anything . And uh all

24:03.079 --> 24:05.250
that is a lot is done unconsciously .

24:05.260 --> 24:07.371
And there's a lot of evidence that we

24:07.371 --> 24:09.680
have a free will choice . You actually

24:09.689 --> 24:12.489
free will . Conscious choice is

24:12.500 --> 24:14.910
initiated unconsciously first ,

24:14.920 --> 24:17.087
anywhere from hundreds of milliseconds

24:17.087 --> 24:19.087
to over a second or two before your

24:19.087 --> 24:21.142
free will . Conscious choice you and

24:21.142 --> 24:23.364
it's very likely your conscious choices

24:23.364 --> 24:25.531
don't do anything that is representing

24:25.531 --> 24:27.531
what your unconscious is doing this

24:27.531 --> 24:29.142
sort and essentially like uh

24:29.142 --> 24:31.198
communicating it to yourself . So my

24:31.209 --> 24:33.431
take on and I have some , there's a lot

24:33.431 --> 24:35.542
of this across multiple literatures ,

24:35.542 --> 24:37.709
hundreds of papers if you compile them

24:37.709 --> 24:40.560
all together uh Other , in addition ,

24:40.569 --> 24:44.469
um I think also there's a philosophical

24:44.479 --> 24:48.060
argument and this is um interesting

24:48.069 --> 24:52.060
uh that there's coherence based truth

24:52.069 --> 24:55.739
or , or um called truth or rationality ,

24:55.750 --> 24:58.280
coherence base , which is a system that

24:58.290 --> 25:00.819
involves symbols and they have to

25:00.829 --> 25:02.885
cohere together like mathematics two

25:02.885 --> 25:04.829
plus two is four and , and , and a

25:04.839 --> 25:08.119
coherent huge system involving symbols .

25:08.130 --> 25:10.297
And all , there's a strong argument in

25:10.297 --> 25:12.880
philosophical areas that those type of

25:12.890 --> 25:15.979
coherent based systems are not equipped .

25:15.989 --> 25:18.100
And that would mean consciousness are

25:18.100 --> 25:21.000
not equipped to actually deal with

25:21.020 --> 25:23.329
reality in a real world that's called

25:23.390 --> 25:25.819
rather than coherence as correspondence

25:25.829 --> 25:29.400
based truth or , or um or

25:29.410 --> 25:32.660
reality . And so correspondence is uh I

25:32.670 --> 25:34.726
have a tree outside my house , let's

25:34.726 --> 25:36.948
say I tell you that you can go look out

25:36.948 --> 25:39.170
my window and there's either a yes or a

25:39.170 --> 25:41.003
no to that response . That's the

25:41.003 --> 25:43.630
natural world , naturalistic symbols

25:43.640 --> 25:46.819
and coherence based systems to

25:47.400 --> 25:50.849
reflect that yes or no binary values .

25:50.859 --> 25:52.970
The term binary something in the , in

25:52.970 --> 25:55.920
the literature uh referred to because

25:55.930 --> 25:57.874
with a coherence based system that

25:57.874 --> 26:01.329
involves propositions and symbols in

26:01.339 --> 26:03.283
theory , you know , this is be and

26:03.283 --> 26:05.599
Russell going back to 1907 paper , I

26:05.609 --> 26:07.831
can send you guys if you want . There's

26:07.831 --> 26:09.998
many papers on this . This is one that

26:09.998 --> 26:11.998
I could almost understand what they

26:11.998 --> 26:14.339
were saying is a philosophical people

26:14.349 --> 26:17.109
from long time ago . But the idea is

26:17.119 --> 26:20.859
that um with a coherence based system ,

26:20.869 --> 26:23.329
a loving symbol that have to cohere

26:23.339 --> 26:26.479
together in theory , in the in the

26:26.489 --> 26:29.089
universe of all propositions , you can

26:29.099 --> 26:31.219
always find some that will cohere

26:31.229 --> 26:33.790
together . So coherence based systems

26:33.800 --> 26:37.060
cannot reflect the negative that is

26:37.069 --> 26:40.569
reflected with co co uh coherence space

26:40.579 --> 26:43.349
systems cannot reflect the the the uh

26:43.359 --> 26:46.920
the nega negative value that is needed

26:46.930 --> 26:49.880
to reflect correspondence based systems .

26:50.010 --> 26:53.329
And so to me that goes along with our ,

26:53.339 --> 26:56.829
our consciousness is is is is

26:56.839 --> 26:59.920
uh is representing to ourselves and

26:59.930 --> 27:03.199
other people , what they think is going

27:03.209 --> 27:05.098
on and implicit knowledge is made

27:05.098 --> 27:07.098
explicit , there's a literature and

27:07.098 --> 27:08.876
that's , that's a learning type

27:08.876 --> 27:10.653
response that we , we play in a

27:10.653 --> 27:12.876
playground , hanging out , learning how

27:12.876 --> 27:15.153
to interact with other kids were a kid .

27:15.153 --> 27:14.599
Not only are we learning how to

27:14.609 --> 27:16.776
socialize with other people , learning

27:16.776 --> 27:18.998
how to turn it inward into , to a re re

27:18.998 --> 27:21.204
representation that makes implicit

27:21.214 --> 27:24.025
knowledge explicit for you to discuss .

27:24.035 --> 27:26.257
There's some theories on conscious that

27:26.257 --> 27:28.257
it's a broadcasting system to other

27:28.257 --> 27:30.424
parts of our brain that makes a lot of

27:30.424 --> 27:32.591
sense to me . I'll present to you guys

27:32.591 --> 27:34.535
in a few weeks that there's strong

27:34.535 --> 27:36.702
evidence as although our consciousness

27:36.702 --> 27:38.924
may be representing again as coherently

27:38.924 --> 27:41.146
representing information to us , as C A

27:41.146 --> 27:43.599
says , it's likely not functioning ,

27:43.609 --> 27:45.819
doing anything and deciding ,

27:45.829 --> 27:48.880
evaluating initiating action and

27:48.890 --> 27:51.719
selecting , selecting actions to take .

27:51.729 --> 27:53.910
It's very , very likely , you know ,

27:53.920 --> 27:56.579
you can't say no , but the the evidence

27:56.589 --> 27:58.680
is , is compelling that our

27:58.689 --> 28:00.300
consciousness is just simply

28:00.300 --> 28:02.356
representing things to ourselves and

28:02.356 --> 28:03.856
other people as a symbolic

28:03.864 --> 28:07.665
communication system , not a uh

28:07.675 --> 28:09.935
functionally doing anything over it

28:10.155 --> 28:12.266
just just be a little careful . I was

28:12.266 --> 28:14.044
with you up until that last two

28:14.044 --> 28:16.574
sentences . Uh I don't want to say it's

28:16.584 --> 28:18.473
not doing anything . I think that

28:18.473 --> 28:20.306
representation for communication

28:20.306 --> 28:22.140
includes communications into the

28:22.140 --> 28:24.214
knowledge I stand correctly . You're

28:24.224 --> 28:26.335
absolutely right on that . It's doing

28:26.335 --> 28:28.113
something what is not , is , is

28:28.113 --> 28:30.280
functionally directly interacting with

28:30.280 --> 28:32.446
the outside world . Absolutely . Thank

28:32.446 --> 28:34.613
you for that . And so , so the point ,

28:34.613 --> 28:36.780
the point being back to Ancient Mike ,

28:36.780 --> 28:39.589
the point being is that um I'm not at

28:39.599 --> 28:42.780
all suggesting I insert a conscious

28:43.040 --> 28:45.207
agent for the purpose of it , making a

28:45.207 --> 28:47.373
decision . That's not the , that's not

28:47.373 --> 28:49.596
where I'm headed at all . I'm headed in

28:49.596 --> 28:51.762
trying to create a representation that

28:51.762 --> 28:53.596
captures some of the engineering

28:53.596 --> 28:55.373
characteristics of your quality

28:55.373 --> 28:57.540
representation . And , and having that

28:57.540 --> 28:59.596
be the way I represent the knowledge

28:59.596 --> 29:01.707
which I'm acquiring for my artificial

29:01.707 --> 29:03.873
intelligence systems . To me , that is

29:03.873 --> 29:06.151
the breakthrough I need . And , and so ,

29:06.151 --> 29:08.373
you know , I I am absolutely these days

29:08.373 --> 29:10.484
in the , in the Robert Patterson camp

29:10.484 --> 29:12.707
of quit trying to make a symbolic , you

29:12.707 --> 29:14.849
know , first wave A I uh shell on top

29:14.859 --> 29:18.170
of a connection is uh second wave A I

29:18.180 --> 29:20.347
uh intuitive system . To me that makes

29:20.347 --> 29:22.458
no sense at all . I think there's one

29:22.458 --> 29:24.291
representation . And I think the

29:24.291 --> 29:26.402
insight into what that representation

29:26.402 --> 29:28.513
is like is our conscious experience .

29:31.359 --> 29:34.520
OK . Well ,

29:34.680 --> 29:37.790
let's , let's , let's go to the uh

29:37.800 --> 29:39.967
let's go to the talking points . Let's

29:39.967 --> 29:42.133
go to these documents and try and walk

29:42.133 --> 29:44.699
through things , see how we might um

29:45.699 --> 29:47.719
get some clarity on some of these

29:47.729 --> 29:51.619
questions . Iii I honestly think um we

29:51.630 --> 29:54.800
could just stop at saying uh we , we

29:54.810 --> 29:56.866
win here because the Air Force has a

29:56.866 --> 29:58.754
strategic document that calls out

29:58.754 --> 30:00.699
consciousness . I think that's the

30:00.699 --> 30:02.921
coolest thing . And now I feel like I'm

30:02.921 --> 30:04.754
just kind of splitting hairs . I

30:04.754 --> 30:06.977
already have something to justify while

30:06.977 --> 30:09.199
we're doing this research . And so just

30:09.199 --> 30:11.254
in that and of itself is the coolest

30:11.254 --> 30:13.477
thing . And so let's let's look at what

30:13.477 --> 30:16.050
a research program might look like here .

30:20.619 --> 30:23.660
So this is uh uh I , I still find this

30:23.670 --> 30:26.089
a great document even though it's , you

30:26.099 --> 30:28.140
know , four years , maybe five when

30:28.150 --> 30:30.261
they started to write it years old at

30:30.261 --> 30:32.428
this point , cap , you can write it if

30:32.428 --> 30:35.180
you want . II I , well , let me give

30:35.189 --> 30:37.522
you a little historical thing here . So ,

30:37.522 --> 30:39.959
um , you know , several years before we

30:39.969 --> 30:42.080
finally got this out the door , the ,

30:42.080 --> 30:44.900
the , uh , secretary and chief of staff

30:44.910 --> 30:47.188
asked for revision document , you know ,

30:47.188 --> 30:49.521
where we're going as a department . And ,

30:49.521 --> 30:52.650
um , and so I was told that they needed

30:52.660 --> 30:54.493
it to be 10 pages or less , uh ,

30:54.680 --> 30:56.791
because the secretary in chief didn't

30:56.791 --> 30:58.958
want to read anything more than that .

30:58.958 --> 31:01.160
And so , uh , uh , Mike and bet and I

31:01.170 --> 31:03.281
whipped it out in about a week , uh ,

31:03.281 --> 31:05.630
maybe 10 days or so , we had a 10 page .

31:05.640 --> 31:08.319
We were done , it took us four years

31:08.329 --> 31:10.218
and it's over 400 pages to get it

31:10.218 --> 31:12.770
through the Pentagon . So I apologize

31:12.780 --> 31:15.002
for that . If you pull this off the web

31:15.002 --> 31:17.280
and read it , it , the , the reason is ,

31:17.280 --> 31:19.336
is , hey , somebody said , hey , how

31:19.336 --> 31:21.280
about putting in , you know , this

31:21.280 --> 31:23.613
piece , how about putting in that piece ?

31:23.613 --> 31:25.724
And so it became , it became quite an

31:25.724 --> 31:27.669
undertaking . Um But , but in , in

31:27.669 --> 31:30.510
either case , as Kevin points out , we ,

31:30.520 --> 31:33.050
uh , successfully inserted into it some

31:33.060 --> 31:36.050
ideas that we , uh , we thought were

31:36.060 --> 31:38.420
overlooked in many of these sorts of

31:38.430 --> 31:40.449
things . Uh And , and we regularly

31:40.459 --> 31:43.369
reference it Um , but I , I absolutely ,

31:43.380 --> 31:45.658
Kevin . You're right . It's , you know ,

31:45.658 --> 31:47.436
2019 is a , is a , you know , a

31:47.436 --> 31:49.959
geological epic way , you know , it's a

31:49.969 --> 31:53.319
lot , seems to change a lot . Well ,

31:53.329 --> 31:55.496
and I think the field of consciousness

31:55.496 --> 31:57.662
is , and , and just our quest group is

31:57.662 --> 31:59.829
advancing too . And so I just think of

31:59.829 --> 32:02.489
reflecting on the last year , even just

32:02.500 --> 32:05.670
the last year in this group . And , uh ,

32:05.680 --> 32:08.949
what I'm gonna , uh highlight here as

32:08.959 --> 32:11.126
you know , maybe potentially different

32:11.126 --> 32:13.126
views between different sections of

32:13.126 --> 32:15.015
this paper and where we're out of

32:15.015 --> 32:17.181
trying to bring those together exactly

32:17.181 --> 32:19.459
what Doug was talking about earlier on .

32:19.459 --> 32:23.229
Um , maybe we will rewrite it in 10

32:23.239 --> 32:24.961
years from now or something to

32:24.961 --> 32:27.183
autonomous rises volume three , I guess

32:27.183 --> 32:28.683
this is the uh this is the

32:28.683 --> 32:30.979
brainstorming session for that . Hey ,

32:30.989 --> 32:34.560
Kevin , you just have chat G BT

32:34.569 --> 32:35.569
rewrite it .

32:39.520 --> 32:42.099
Ah , I don't know . Cool . I like that .

32:42.109 --> 32:45.280
It's funny that was you , you can . So

32:45.540 --> 32:48.530
with me , I just want to highlight that

32:48.540 --> 32:50.818
this is the work . This is not my work .

32:50.818 --> 32:52.707
This is the work of C A uh Doctor

32:52.707 --> 32:54.989
Mendenhall , Mike Mendenhall Kane is

32:55.000 --> 32:56.944
his call sign our Chief Technology

32:56.944 --> 32:59.449
Officer in Act three and Bert Peterson

32:59.459 --> 33:01.570
Gilbert , Doctor Burt Peterson at Air

33:01.570 --> 33:03.459
Force Institute of Technology Act

33:03.459 --> 33:06.020
three's chief scientist . And so 12 or

33:06.030 --> 33:08.086
three of those folks will be with us

33:08.086 --> 33:10.869
next week . Um , for all your questions

33:10.880 --> 33:13.189
that I am unqualified to answer . But I

33:13.199 --> 33:15.319
can try to lay some groundwork here .

33:19.359 --> 33:21.589
Oh OK . There's some , some new

33:21.599 --> 33:23.655
comments in here that I haven't seen

33:23.655 --> 33:25.655
yet . I , I threw those in . Let me

33:25.655 --> 33:27.877
just show you , tell you why I put this

33:27.877 --> 33:29.877
in here . So , so this is the world

33:29.877 --> 33:31.877
that we were asked to address , you

33:31.877 --> 33:34.043
know , and this is , this is a diagram

33:34.043 --> 33:35.543
which I've seen in so many

33:35.543 --> 33:37.766
presentations where people talk about ,

33:37.766 --> 33:39.877
hey , uh instead of fighting an F Dan

33:39.877 --> 33:42.043
or Iraq , and you're going to now take

33:42.043 --> 33:44.210
on a peer or near peer adversary . And

33:44.210 --> 33:46.665
people throw up diagrams like this ,

33:46.724 --> 33:49.655
implying there's places where uh you're

33:49.665 --> 33:51.776
just not going to be able to get your

33:51.776 --> 33:53.776
assets into or out of . And so they

33:53.776 --> 33:55.721
call these , you know , these anti

33:55.721 --> 33:58.074
access area denial uh spaces and , and

33:58.084 --> 34:00.314
this is a common depiction and when

34:00.324 --> 34:02.435
people throw it up , they , they make

34:02.435 --> 34:04.491
these very broad statements . And in

34:04.491 --> 34:06.602
essence why I threw it into Economist

34:06.602 --> 34:08.889
Horizons was I think it's an

34:08.899 --> 34:11.066
oversimplification . There's , there's

34:11.066 --> 34:14.070
no uh there's no wall there in , in ,

34:14.370 --> 34:17.560
in space time . That's pink that you

34:17.570 --> 34:19.626
can't penetrate , you know , there's

34:19.626 --> 34:21.626
sensors there , there's platforms ,

34:21.626 --> 34:23.959
there , there's , there's dangers there ,

34:23.959 --> 34:26.181
there's risk , there's uh but , but you

34:26.181 --> 34:28.760
know , if I , if I have a , a Air Force

34:28.770 --> 34:30.826
and Space Force that have autonomous

34:30.826 --> 34:33.209
capabilities at best , you could say

34:33.219 --> 34:35.439
that's a Swiss cheese pink area , you

34:35.449 --> 34:37.338
know , there are places you could

34:37.338 --> 34:39.393
probably go through and and never be

34:39.393 --> 34:41.727
damaged . There are missions you can do .

34:41.727 --> 34:43.893
Uh some of which you probably wouldn't

34:43.893 --> 34:46.005
want to risk humans . On the point is

34:46.005 --> 34:48.171
the bottom line over on the right side

34:48.171 --> 34:50.171
is we as a Department Air and Space

34:50.171 --> 34:52.227
Force are committed to decentralized

34:52.227 --> 34:54.449
execution . We are committed to crude ,

34:54.449 --> 34:56.505
un crude teaming . You put those two

34:56.505 --> 34:58.830
statements together and you , you say

34:58.840 --> 35:01.600
that it requires intelligent autonomous

35:01.610 --> 35:03.739
solutions . And so the question that

35:03.750 --> 35:06.000
quest is always asking is , you know ,

35:06.010 --> 35:07.843
what's the basis of that ? Now ,

35:07.843 --> 35:10.066
there's clearly some of these pieces of

35:10.066 --> 35:12.121
the missions we can do with existing

35:12.121 --> 35:14.288
artificial intelligence capabilities .

35:14.288 --> 35:16.709
But my suspicion is to really ensure an

35:16.719 --> 35:18.886
enduring asymmetric advantage . And by

35:18.886 --> 35:20.775
the way , that is our vision , an

35:20.775 --> 35:23.729
enduring asymmetric A I advantage , an

35:23.739 --> 35:25.939
A I enabled autonomy advantage for the

35:25.949 --> 35:27.949
Air Force and Space Force . That is

35:27.949 --> 35:30.060
absolutely what we are committed to .

35:30.570 --> 35:33.030
Given that statement . I personally uh

35:33.040 --> 35:35.262
have adopted the position that we can't

35:35.262 --> 35:37.780
ensure that in advantage without

35:37.790 --> 35:39.957
cracking the quest nut . I think it is

35:39.957 --> 35:42.012
absolutely critical . We put that in

35:42.012 --> 35:44.959
this document for that reason . And um

35:45.050 --> 35:47.217
anyway , that's what this picture is ,

35:47.217 --> 35:49.439
Kevin . I , I put that those words in .

35:49.439 --> 35:51.439
Yeah . Yeah . Yeah . Um I was gonna

35:51.439 --> 35:53.383
keep this super general to again ,

35:53.383 --> 35:55.383
everyone , remember this is an open

35:55.383 --> 35:57.550
meeting and all are welcome , but that

35:57.550 --> 35:59.606
also means , you know , not maybe mm

35:59.606 --> 36:01.709
Mike next week , we'll probably talk

36:01.719 --> 36:03.840
about some more specific situations

36:03.850 --> 36:05.961
here . Where , where these things can

36:05.961 --> 36:07.961
be applicable . But to me , I , you

36:07.961 --> 36:09.961
know , II , I remember when I first

36:09.961 --> 36:12.294
learn this word anti access area denial .

36:12.294 --> 36:14.350
A two ad , it's , you know , they're

36:14.350 --> 36:16.128
jamming your gps and there's no

36:16.128 --> 36:18.729
communication between the un crude

36:18.780 --> 36:20.836
airplane and , and so it's got to be

36:20.836 --> 36:23.370
able to autonomously accomplish its

36:23.379 --> 36:25.435
mission , fly around and , and stuff

36:25.435 --> 36:27.649
like that . And so that's all I was

36:27.659 --> 36:31.370
gonna say in a general sense . Um But

36:31.379 --> 36:33.546
next week , I hope we do get into more

36:33.546 --> 36:37.020
specific um specific

36:37.030 --> 36:39.399
um mission sets or something like that ,

36:39.409 --> 36:41.669
that were , that um we might be more

36:41.679 --> 36:43.901
interested in specifically here . Maybe

36:43.901 --> 36:45.901
Michael , talk about that . I think

36:45.901 --> 36:49.780
he's got some plans too . Uh All

36:49.790 --> 36:51.957
right , I wanna park on this one for a

36:51.957 --> 36:53.957
little bit too because I , I really

36:53.957 --> 36:56.729
think that this is kind of the um just

36:56.739 --> 37:00.479
this one figure is the uh uh uh a good

37:00.489 --> 37:02.656
research and development plan . So the

37:02.656 --> 37:05.000
idea is um where we're trying to get to

37:05.010 --> 37:07.010
is a framework for these autonomous

37:07.010 --> 37:10.629
systems . And

37:10.639 --> 37:13.010
so , you know , uh here's my background

37:13.020 --> 37:15.242
on the very bottom left , right . I'm a

37:15.242 --> 37:17.600
neuroscientist and I also now have a ,

37:17.610 --> 37:19.332
a phd and strong background in

37:19.332 --> 37:21.659
cognitive psychology . And you can see

37:21.669 --> 37:25.050
those two , those two research

37:25.060 --> 37:27.459
areas blend together into cognitive

37:27.469 --> 37:29.691
architectures , which is something that

37:29.691 --> 37:31.691
is budding in Act Three . These are

37:31.691 --> 37:35.320
things like A R things like Libra

37:35.729 --> 37:38.699
um you know , and and , and

37:39.199 --> 37:42.979
anyone who has their phd knows if you

37:42.989 --> 37:44.878
step a little bit outside of your

37:44.878 --> 37:47.100
particular area of expertise . Like I'm

37:47.100 --> 37:49.156
confident in saying I'm an expert in

37:49.500 --> 37:51.667
how the brain learns things , learning

37:51.667 --> 37:53.889
and memory and neuroscience . But , you

37:53.889 --> 37:55.833
know , if I step just a little bit

37:55.833 --> 37:55.500
outside of that into cognitive

37:55.510 --> 37:57.709
architectures , I'm quickly over my

37:57.719 --> 37:59.941
head or it's gonna take a long time for

37:59.941 --> 38:02.275
me to get , to get up to speed for that ,

38:02.275 --> 38:04.441
let alone something that's all the way

38:04.441 --> 38:06.663
at the top left , which is , you know ,

38:06.663 --> 38:09.649
robotics um that said we're very

38:09.659 --> 38:13.179
diverse group here . And so um

38:13.659 --> 38:15.881
I think there's probably representation

38:15.881 --> 38:17.937
from all of these different research

38:17.937 --> 38:19.992
areas here . I did have a particular

38:19.992 --> 38:21.881
question , a couple of particular

38:21.881 --> 38:24.103
questions that I wanted to throw out to

38:24.103 --> 38:26.048
the group . So in my reading these

38:26.048 --> 38:28.129
terms hard A I and soft A I were

38:28.139 --> 38:30.590
somewhat new to me . But what I'm

38:31.389 --> 38:34.320
putting together is hard A I , the hard

38:34.330 --> 38:36.409
is that it's hard coded . So that's

38:36.419 --> 38:39.580
like symbolic kinds of models . These

38:39.590 --> 38:43.090
are like um expert system models . Um

38:43.149 --> 38:45.205
An example I think they gave is like

38:45.205 --> 38:47.209
TurboTax where you know all the

38:47.219 --> 38:49.969
different rules of the game and you can

38:49.979 --> 38:52.201
you , you know , plug these all in in a

38:52.201 --> 38:55.409
kind of a rule based um type of

38:55.419 --> 38:58.879
representation versus soft A I

38:59.370 --> 39:01.259
um brings in this concept of like

39:01.259 --> 39:03.370
emergence . So this is things like uh

39:03.370 --> 39:05.919
connection is modeling or uh neural

39:05.929 --> 39:08.270
neural networks . This is sub symbolic

39:08.280 --> 39:11.909
computational models . Someone please

39:11.919 --> 39:14.030
correct me if I'm wrong on that . But

39:14.030 --> 39:16.252
then the open question is to me is what

39:16.252 --> 39:18.475
is this , what is cybernetics ? Because

39:18.475 --> 39:21.239
as I was reading this document , it

39:21.250 --> 39:24.270
seemed like cybernetics was this

39:25.340 --> 39:28.280
way of information processing of human

39:28.290 --> 39:31.760
computer interaction . Robert .

39:32.449 --> 39:36.189
Yeah , it's uh the title of the I guess

39:36.199 --> 39:39.719
the key book is uh Control in , in , is

39:39.729 --> 39:42.719
it something like Control in , in man

39:42.729 --> 39:44.699
and machines ? And so it's really

39:44.709 --> 39:47.040
talking about feedback systems , uh

39:47.050 --> 39:49.739
positive , negative and so on . And

39:49.750 --> 39:52.530
there's a uh this guy who sprung from

39:52.540 --> 39:56.500
that is Jay Forester from MIT in uh in

39:56.510 --> 39:58.621
their business school , I think Sloan

39:58.621 --> 40:00.343
business School and he sort of

40:00.343 --> 40:03.409
continued that uh that uh cybernetic

40:03.419 --> 40:06.340
type theme of , of involving feedback

40:06.350 --> 40:08.572
systems is , is the name of the game as

40:08.572 --> 40:10.572
far as uh minor , minor standing is

40:10.572 --> 40:10.939
over

40:15.330 --> 40:18.080
feedback from what to what or just

40:18.090 --> 40:20.201
feedback of a control control systems

40:20.201 --> 40:22.423
in general . The idea is if you're , if

40:22.423 --> 40:24.146
you're , if you're in a system

40:24.146 --> 40:26.090
controlling things , you involving

40:26.090 --> 40:28.034
feedback , so positive feedback is

40:28.034 --> 40:30.146
spending for growth and you get , the

40:30.146 --> 40:32.201
feedback is going to the set point .

40:32.201 --> 40:34.459
And uh and uh Jay Forrester created a

40:34.469 --> 40:36.760
thing called system dynamics , which is

40:36.770 --> 40:39.879
very closely related . And uh Jay

40:39.889 --> 40:42.111
Forester actually was in on inventing I

40:42.111 --> 40:44.000
think core memory in the , in the

40:44.000 --> 40:46.270
thirties and forties thirties . And

40:46.280 --> 40:48.280
then he went into believe it or not

40:48.280 --> 40:51.389
using his uh control systems theories

40:51.399 --> 40:54.429
and stuff when in the management and uh

40:54.439 --> 40:58.040
and economics . And so he was modeling

40:58.050 --> 41:00.790
and feedback systems , economic uh

41:01.209 --> 41:03.939
phenomenon stuff . And so it's pretty

41:03.949 --> 41:06.139
much how , how controlling things

41:06.149 --> 41:08.149
you're either , you know , you're ,

41:08.149 --> 41:10.205
you're exponentially growing or , or

41:10.205 --> 41:12.239
finding a set point and controlling

41:12.250 --> 41:13.917
that way , like , like a room

41:13.917 --> 41:17.030
thermometer or something . Thank you .

41:19.189 --> 41:21.169
Uh You turn your camera on again

41:21.179 --> 41:24.189
instead of muting . Uh So

41:25.030 --> 41:28.179
I'd like to add one thought , not a

41:28.189 --> 41:31.540
change , but it might motivate a change

41:32.850 --> 41:35.870
in this picture . I'm pointing to the

41:35.879 --> 41:37.679
area where it says competitive

41:38.209 --> 41:41.520
computational models of humans

41:41.530 --> 41:43.550
for systems .

41:45.030 --> 41:47.820
Well , is it possible that you also

41:47.830 --> 41:50.649
have for of bottles of

41:50.659 --> 41:54.620
systems for humans ? The inverse

41:54.800 --> 41:57.010
should be included in there .

41:59.070 --> 42:01.770
What's there right now is the na nature

42:01.780 --> 42:05.149
of the world of much work today . But

42:05.159 --> 42:09.090
we are going well beyond aar , that's a

42:09.100 --> 42:13.030
old rule based technology . And

42:13.100 --> 42:15.800
I've argued that machines have to

42:15.810 --> 42:18.060
explain what they're doing to the human

42:18.070 --> 42:21.780
sometimes or why did the aircraft make

42:21.790 --> 42:25.129
this kind of turn to avoid a

42:25.139 --> 42:27.830
missile ? And the humans didn't see

42:27.840 --> 42:30.760
something that the robot saw . So the

42:30.770 --> 42:34.320
humans models and the machines

42:34.330 --> 42:37.739
models need to go both ways . I

42:37.750 --> 42:39.949
think in the very near future ,

42:42.580 --> 42:44.413
if you were really talking about

42:44.413 --> 42:48.189
autonomous systems out ,

42:53.060 --> 42:55.116
did that make sense ? Yeah . No , it

42:55.116 --> 42:55.600
did .

43:00.689 --> 43:02.770
Yeah , guys , I mean , my goodness ,

43:02.780 --> 43:05.070
what a , what a breadth of um

43:06.280 --> 43:09.379
expertise needed here . But um we

43:09.389 --> 43:11.333
should expect no less for the Holy

43:11.333 --> 43:13.260
Grail , which is uh artificial

43:13.270 --> 43:16.449
consciousness . And so um this is the ,

43:16.459 --> 43:18.979
this is a high level overview . I mean ,

43:18.989 --> 43:21.760
maybe there's points of discussion in

43:21.770 --> 43:23.770
here . I don't really have too much

43:23.770 --> 43:25.881
more to say . I , except I , I really

43:25.881 --> 43:27.826
enjoy coming into these meetings ,

43:27.826 --> 43:30.090
which I think is um you know , this

43:30.100 --> 43:33.540
sort of flow chart here uh in practice .

43:33.550 --> 43:35.879
And so it's gonna really take all these

43:35.889 --> 43:38.056
different diverse viewpoints . I guess

43:38.056 --> 43:40.500
they left philosophers out here . Um We

43:40.510 --> 43:42.566
might devolve into that later in the

43:42.566 --> 43:44.454
conversation today . We we always

43:44.454 --> 43:46.677
evolve into that . I just want to point

43:46.677 --> 43:48.732
out my comment . I put on the bottom

43:48.732 --> 43:50.788
and that is um we should have put in

43:50.788 --> 43:52.732
this diagram , the requirement for

43:52.732 --> 43:54.566
responsible autonomous systems .

43:54.566 --> 43:56.788
There's nothing we do in the department

43:56.788 --> 43:58.843
that we don't have that right at the

43:58.843 --> 44:02.770
core . Yes , thank you . Yes , that's

44:02.800 --> 44:06.449
fine . OK . Let

44:06.459 --> 44:09.250
me uh OK .

44:12.719 --> 44:14.941
Uh You know , this is what one of these

44:14.949 --> 44:17.060
uh autonomous system frameworks could

44:17.060 --> 44:19.227
look like you've got the outside world

44:19.227 --> 44:21.171
at the bottom . It goes in through

44:21.171 --> 44:23.393
sensors , there's some sort of hardware

44:23.393 --> 44:25.505
software platform . This is the Asy ,

44:25.505 --> 44:27.393
the Air and Space Force Cognitive

44:27.393 --> 44:29.616
Engine perhaps that then has effects on

44:29.616 --> 44:31.879
the outside world . But using that Air

44:31.889 --> 44:34.500
and Space Force Cognitive Engine , we

44:34.510 --> 44:36.540
can develop different computational

44:36.550 --> 44:39.500
methods and algorithms and feed that

44:39.510 --> 44:41.979
into some kind of autonomous system .

44:43.209 --> 44:45.209
And because we've done this , we've

44:45.209 --> 44:47.860
built this all with this uh cybernetic

44:47.870 --> 44:50.100
and , and human machine interaction .

44:50.110 --> 44:52.277
This , you know , we could potentially

44:52.277 --> 44:54.388
use this sort of framework to build a

44:54.388 --> 44:56.332
better human machine interface for

44:56.332 --> 44:58.443
better uh alignment between the human

44:58.443 --> 45:00.666
and the machine . So this is an example

45:00.666 --> 45:02.777
of what it could look like I inserted

45:02.777 --> 45:02.669
on the left there , Kevin , you know ,

45:02.679 --> 45:04.846
the premise , the reason this diagrams

45:04.846 --> 45:07.780
in there is um at least again , in the

45:07.790 --> 45:09.512
department , we don't envision

45:09.512 --> 45:11.734
autonomous systems other than the way I

45:11.734 --> 45:13.957
have to find them there . On the left ,

45:13.957 --> 45:15.957
it'd be physical or digital systems

45:15.957 --> 45:18.068
that do something as a result of some

45:18.068 --> 45:20.068
human granny , it delegated bounded

45:20.068 --> 45:22.012
authority to perform that function

45:22.012 --> 45:24.179
that's critical . And since a human is

45:24.179 --> 45:26.290
doing the delegation and the bounding

45:26.290 --> 45:28.234
of the authority of the autonomous

45:28.234 --> 45:28.020
systems , you've got to figure out some

45:28.030 --> 45:30.141
way that the human can interface with

45:30.141 --> 45:32.252
that system and and ensure that , you

45:32.252 --> 45:34.419
know , that authority is appropriate .

45:34.419 --> 45:36.586
So you know , that again , responsible

45:36.586 --> 45:38.641
comes in there . But the point is is

45:38.641 --> 45:40.752
too often in the department . We were

45:40.752 --> 45:42.641
seeing people using the economy .

45:42.641 --> 45:44.808
Whereas as these things , we just turn

45:44.808 --> 45:47.030
loose and , and that's not the model we

45:47.030 --> 45:49.197
want people thinking about . There's a

45:49.197 --> 45:51.363
human here somewhere , it could be the

45:51.363 --> 45:50.889
commander , it could be the person

45:50.899 --> 45:53.010
employing it . It could be all of the

45:53.010 --> 45:55.219
above . Thanks .

45:56.810 --> 46:00.689
I come to uh a very good pointed

46:01.120 --> 46:04.840
path made again , I would

46:05.000 --> 46:08.639
iterate that the autonomous machine

46:09.060 --> 46:12.399
needs to explain itself to the human ,

46:12.659 --> 46:15.080
that I saw a way to deal with a

46:15.090 --> 46:18.260
situation that a human missed .

46:19.260 --> 46:22.889
But , and here's the key pair up with

46:22.899 --> 46:26.320
cap . At the next level , the human is

46:26.330 --> 46:28.879
always in control of what to do next .

46:29.679 --> 46:31.780
But we should allow the machine to

46:31.790 --> 46:35.120
explain itself to the human , something

46:35.129 --> 46:37.389
that the machine was very good at

46:37.399 --> 46:40.310
perceiving in a given situation in a

46:40.320 --> 46:44.189
battle . But control always resides

46:44.199 --> 46:47.360
with a human as cap pointed out over ,

46:47.409 --> 46:49.419
I just don't want to , I I I'm

46:49.429 --> 46:51.729
completely on Doug's point except for

46:51.739 --> 46:54.600
the word explain . Um

46:55.370 --> 46:59.209
bothers me a lot . Um Here's what ,

46:59.219 --> 47:01.497
you know , I I've given you the vision ,

47:01.497 --> 47:03.552
the vision is an enduring asymmetric

47:03.552 --> 47:06.479
advantage um response by I right on top

47:06.489 --> 47:09.580
of my list that being said , um my

47:09.590 --> 47:11.812
experience and Doug's experience , he's

47:11.812 --> 47:13.923
part of the people who taught me this

47:13.923 --> 47:16.580
is that quite often you can calibrate

47:16.590 --> 47:18.560
the amount of trust you give to a

47:18.570 --> 47:22.139
system based on experience versus uh

47:22.209 --> 47:25.000
explanation . In other words , my

47:25.010 --> 47:27.066
favorite example , because I spent a

47:27.066 --> 47:29.232
decade doing breast cancer detection .

47:29.232 --> 47:31.288
There's no way there's zero way that

47:31.288 --> 47:33.066
those physicians understood the

47:33.066 --> 47:34.843
statistical pattern recognition

47:34.843 --> 47:36.954
approaches . I was using um to detect

47:36.954 --> 47:39.177
breast cancers that they were missing .

47:39.177 --> 47:41.121
Um I could point to them and say ,

47:41.121 --> 47:43.010
please take a second look at that

47:43.010 --> 47:45.232
location and there was no way for me to

47:45.232 --> 47:47.454
explain to them , the statistical , you

47:47.454 --> 47:49.677
know , drawing of the boundaries in the

47:49.677 --> 47:51.899
in the vector space , uh the weights of

47:51.899 --> 47:54.121
the neural net , it just wasn't , I was

47:54.121 --> 47:54.120
never going to get there . Explanations

47:54.129 --> 47:56.899
don't work . But experiences allow them

47:57.010 --> 47:58.843
in their conscious space and the

47:58.843 --> 48:00.899
quality of space to develop a mental

48:00.899 --> 48:03.066
model of when they should trust it and

48:03.066 --> 48:05.177
when they , they shouldn't trust it .

48:05.177 --> 48:07.232
And as long as I designed the system

48:07.232 --> 48:07.010
and this is where Doug was really

48:07.020 --> 48:09.199
emphasizing explanation could be no

48:09.209 --> 48:11.929
more than , than creating a system that

48:11.939 --> 48:14.320
the human can create a mental model for .

48:14.330 --> 48:16.552
So you're not explaining the details of

48:16.552 --> 48:18.663
the algorithmics . You're you in some

48:18.663 --> 48:20.959
sense uh enabled the creation of this

48:20.969 --> 48:22.439
joint model over

48:24.520 --> 48:28.429
totally agree . A cap . Can I see some ?

48:29.330 --> 48:31.949
I I agree with that but I also think uh

48:31.959 --> 48:34.250
the definitely the experience is a way

48:34.260 --> 48:36.593
to go . And I think what that does more ,

48:36.593 --> 48:38.704
more than the conscious thing , is it

48:38.704 --> 48:40.629
fine tunes the experience for the

48:40.639 --> 48:44.129
unconscious ? And this is kind of AAA

48:44.139 --> 48:47.379
calibration set in and you may or may

48:47.389 --> 48:49.530
not be able to express what that

48:49.540 --> 48:52.350
numeric value is or what's contributing

48:52.360 --> 48:55.310
to it verbally , but your , your whole

48:55.320 --> 48:57.510
body is resonating right in there

48:57.520 --> 48:59.742
unconsciously with what's going on . So

48:59.750 --> 49:01.972
I agree with you and you could only get

49:01.972 --> 49:03.972
that through experience , I think .

49:03.972 --> 49:06.540
Yeah . Yeah , Robert , let me wait .

49:06.879 --> 49:08.823
Let me just respond to Robert here

49:08.823 --> 49:10.823
briefly . Keep in mind everything I

49:10.823 --> 49:13.046
said prior when you talked , I'm saying

49:13.469 --> 49:15.691
the conscious experience through that ,

49:15.691 --> 49:17.580
that interaction , that conscious

49:17.580 --> 49:19.525
experience is what allowed them to

49:19.525 --> 49:21.691
create that in intuitive model , which

49:21.691 --> 49:23.858
they are then using to calibrate their

49:23.858 --> 49:26.080
trust . So , so you're , you're right .

49:26.080 --> 49:28.191
But I'm saying that that conscious is

49:28.191 --> 49:30.358
playing a role in that . I'm sorry . I

49:30.358 --> 49:32.080
agree . I agree with that . We

49:32.320 --> 49:35.229
definitely agree with cap's comments ,

49:35.770 --> 49:38.760
but I don't want to all of you to think

49:38.770 --> 49:41.500
that we're gonna see explanations at

49:41.510 --> 49:45.219
the level of rules or weighted graphs

49:45.229 --> 49:47.570
and a neural net . That's the wrong

49:47.580 --> 49:50.540
kind of explanation from the machine .

49:50.600 --> 49:53.080
Back to the human . It's gotta be

49:53.090 --> 49:56.290
humanlike dialogue . That is

49:56.300 --> 49:59.699
the eco system that hey , I saw a way

49:59.709 --> 50:02.699
to avoid the missile because , but it's

50:02.709 --> 50:05.139
not gonna sit there and go rule one or

50:05.149 --> 50:09.030
two . Rule rule N that's too

50:09.040 --> 50:11.040
much in the weeds . It's gotta be a

50:11.040 --> 50:13.909
human to human like interaction even

50:13.919 --> 50:16.729
though one of the actors here is the

50:16.739 --> 50:19.750
machine . Uh oh

50:22.639 --> 50:25.360
I'm , I'm not sure where we landed on

50:25.370 --> 50:28.959
um explainability if we're pro or con .

50:28.969 --> 50:32.360
But um I'm con in terms of you're gonna

50:32.370 --> 50:34.919
use the explainability word to imply .

50:34.929 --> 50:37.096
The human has to understand that level

50:37.096 --> 50:39.373
down there , which is the algorithmics ,

50:39.373 --> 50:41.429
you're , you're , you're dead in the

50:41.429 --> 50:43.207
water , uh You'll have inferior

50:43.207 --> 50:45.373
performance there . There's no way the

50:45.373 --> 50:47.596
human pilot understands that details of

50:47.596 --> 50:47.225
the deep reinforcement learning

50:47.235 --> 50:49.665
algorithms that AO is employing . That

50:49.675 --> 50:52.364
being said the fact that we can create

50:52.395 --> 50:54.804
via experiences that hey , you never

50:54.814 --> 50:56.981
get this wrong when I'm being attacked

50:56.981 --> 50:59.147
in that direction . This is you always

50:59.147 --> 51:01.092
figure out a way out of this . I'm

51:01.092 --> 51:03.092
gonna trust you . So as , as Robert

51:03.092 --> 51:05.324
points out um for people reading the

51:05.334 --> 51:07.334
screen , Max Patterson , you know ,

51:07.334 --> 51:09.334
Robert points out there that , that

51:09.334 --> 51:11.556
your experiences teaches you , you know

51:11.556 --> 51:13.501
where to trust it and where not to

51:13.501 --> 51:15.556
without understanding the details of

51:15.556 --> 51:17.667
the algorithmics . And so explanation

51:17.667 --> 51:19.890
in terms of some sort of mental model .

51:19.890 --> 51:21.890
And again , I'm sorry , I always go

51:21.890 --> 51:24.056
back to breast cancer because it's the

51:24.056 --> 51:26.390
easiest way for me to talk to you . But ,

51:26.390 --> 51:28.278
but when I first created my first

51:28.278 --> 51:30.445
product to detect breast cancers , the

51:30.445 --> 51:32.612
physicians hated it . You know , why ,

51:32.612 --> 51:34.667
why did you call that cancer ? And I

51:34.667 --> 51:34.639
tried to explain to them , you know ,

51:34.649 --> 51:36.871
decision boundaries and things and they

51:36.871 --> 51:39.149
didn't , they didn't like it . Why did ,

51:39.149 --> 51:41.427
why didn't you call that cancer ? Well ,

51:41.427 --> 51:43.649
you know , I mean , there's examples in

51:43.649 --> 51:45.760
the data that doesn't work . But when

51:45.760 --> 51:47.427
we spent the time to create a

51:47.427 --> 51:49.427
representation that in some sense ,

51:49.427 --> 51:51.538
mimic the way humans . Oh , that's an

51:51.538 --> 51:53.538
asymmetric density . Hey , that's a

51:53.538 --> 51:55.705
cluster of micro cal when we spent the

51:55.705 --> 51:57.705
time to create representations that

51:57.705 --> 51:59.927
humans could relate to and then created

51:59.927 --> 52:01.816
a statistical pattern recognition

52:01.816 --> 52:03.871
systems using that feature set . Now

52:03.871 --> 52:03.739
all of a sudden , they could create a

52:03.750 --> 52:05.750
mental model and say you always get

52:05.750 --> 52:07.917
those . Right . I better take a second

52:07.917 --> 52:10.250
look . Oh , . There's a cancer I missed .

52:10.250 --> 52:10.030
So , although they didn't understand

52:10.040 --> 52:12.310
the algorithmics in Doug's words , they

52:12.320 --> 52:14.542
had an explanation in the sense of they

52:14.542 --> 52:16.487
had a mental model and in Robert's

52:16.487 --> 52:18.431
words , they had an experience set

52:18.431 --> 52:20.598
which they had categorized away , even

52:20.598 --> 52:22.709
though they can't articulate it . You

52:22.709 --> 52:22.520
never get those wrong . I got to take

52:22.530 --> 52:23.959
another look over .

52:26.020 --> 52:29.120
Thanks , Robert . Go ahead . Just ,

52:29.129 --> 52:31.610
just to add that . I agree totally . Uh

52:31.620 --> 52:33.870
There was a paper in 2008 , I can dig

52:33.879 --> 52:37.219
it up for you . Uh And it shows that

52:37.229 --> 52:39.340
the uh uh again , I haven't read this

52:39.340 --> 52:41.562
in a few years but the , the gist of it

52:41.562 --> 52:43.959
was , they , they , they gave subjects

52:43.989 --> 52:47.620
1000 slides to watch over , I think a

52:47.629 --> 52:50.129
couple of hours , 1000 pictures

52:51.050 --> 52:53.560
and they , they were grouped in , I

52:53.570 --> 52:55.570
think eight different categories of

52:55.570 --> 52:58.409
scenes of rivers , all different rivers ,

52:58.419 --> 53:00.419
scenes of a living room , different

53:00.429 --> 53:02.750
houses , scenes of a yard , all

53:02.760 --> 53:05.038
different yards and so on and so forth .

53:05.038 --> 53:07.260
Eight different categories . And they ,

53:07.260 --> 53:09.371
and they had in view and the idea was

53:09.371 --> 53:11.204
push a button when you see a , a

53:11.204 --> 53:13.389
duplicate the same slide twice . In

53:13.439 --> 53:17.419
reality , the slides had various

53:17.489 --> 53:20.449
uh very subtle correlations in the

53:20.459 --> 53:22.570
sequences that were , there were some

53:22.570 --> 53:25.770
triples and uh but the , the subsists

53:25.780 --> 53:28.560
weren't told that . And so after

53:28.570 --> 53:31.360
viewing 1000 of these slides , they

53:31.370 --> 53:33.314
then had is again , this is called

53:33.314 --> 53:35.600
implicit learning . They had to uh uh

53:35.800 --> 53:37.856
put them in different categories and

53:37.856 --> 53:39.911
they couldn't . But when they tested

53:39.911 --> 53:42.340
them and , you know , here's one set of

53:42.350 --> 53:44.830
three , here's another one . Is that

53:44.840 --> 53:47.007
one familiar to you or not ? They go ,

53:47.007 --> 53:49.590
yes , they could be above chance in

53:49.600 --> 53:51.656
that kind , kind of discrimination ,

53:51.656 --> 53:53.711
but they couldn't say what they were

53:53.711 --> 53:55.767
really queuing in on . So implicitly

53:55.767 --> 53:57.711
learn whatever the features of the

53:57.711 --> 54:00.250
different categories of scenes of , of

54:00.260 --> 54:02.260
slides that they saw and they could

54:02.260 --> 54:04.093
somehow generate the key is they

54:04.093 --> 54:06.719
implicitly learn across categories .

54:06.850 --> 54:09.129
Unconscious , implicit learning can be

54:09.139 --> 54:12.870
categorical in its , in its processing .

54:12.879 --> 54:14.879
And to me , that was a real amazing

54:14.879 --> 54:17.610
fine . I think Robert , I think that's

54:17.620 --> 54:20.429
a perfect uh transition point to a big

54:20.439 --> 54:22.810
problem that I have in this document .

54:22.820 --> 54:24.820
And also honestly with your field ,

54:24.820 --> 54:26.820
with my field , with my work , with

54:26.820 --> 54:30.649
your work , um this distinction even

54:30.659 --> 54:33.300
between implicit and explicit and you

54:33.310 --> 54:36.020
just now used implicit synonymous with

54:36.030 --> 54:38.086
unconscious . And here's where we're

54:38.086 --> 54:40.252
getting into problems . If we're , you

54:40.252 --> 54:42.474
know , it's like , well , then if we're

54:42.474 --> 54:44.697
defining conscious as the generation of

54:44.697 --> 54:46.641
qualia . So are we saying in those

54:46.641 --> 54:48.863
representations , there was no qualia ?

54:48.863 --> 54:50.919
And that's really , I mean , I don't

54:50.919 --> 54:53.340
expect anyone to have the , this is the ,

54:53.350 --> 54:55.709
this is where an autonomous rise in

54:55.719 --> 54:57.949
volume three . I think this tension

54:57.959 --> 55:00.126
that we're setting up and that we talk

55:00.126 --> 55:02.070
about in this meeting . I think we

55:02.070 --> 55:04.237
could we could potentially do better .

55:04.237 --> 55:06.570
But that's , that's where I think a big ,

55:06.570 --> 55:06.489
big fundamental problem is with um this

55:06.500 --> 55:09.909
field . Um Let , let me say something

55:09.919 --> 55:12.429
about that just real quickly . So , um

55:12.580 --> 55:14.636
yeah , that , that , that's just one

55:14.636 --> 55:16.919
just too conscious unconscious that we

55:16.929 --> 55:18.985
got , we've got to get real clean on

55:18.985 --> 55:20.929
how we're going to use those terms

55:20.929 --> 55:22.985
going forward . And so I , I've been

55:22.985 --> 55:24.873
holding back waiting for Robert's

55:24.873 --> 55:24.709
presentation to the group and I think

55:24.719 --> 55:26.608
we can nail it at that point . So

55:26.608 --> 55:28.663
that's coming , I think we're OK . I

55:28.663 --> 55:30.886
think we're on a path to clean that one

55:30.886 --> 55:33.163
up . Uh That being said , II , I can't ,

55:33.163 --> 55:35.386
I've got to respond to what Robert said

55:35.386 --> 55:37.552
because I think it's sort of important

55:37.552 --> 55:39.608
for people to walk away from so that

55:39.608 --> 55:41.830
when you're getting all these images in

55:41.830 --> 55:44.052
uh you may not be attending to the fact

55:44.052 --> 55:46.219
that this is a member of that category

55:46.219 --> 55:45.840
or this category . But you did

55:45.850 --> 55:48.017
consciously uh you , you took the data

55:48.017 --> 55:50.979
in the fact that that created a link

55:50.989 --> 55:53.489
sequence uh that , that tied to those

55:53.500 --> 55:55.729
other categories and you didn't attend

55:55.739 --> 55:58.080
to the leak sequence consciously

55:58.090 --> 56:00.201
doesn't mean that it wasn't evoked in

56:00.201 --> 56:02.257
your knowledge representation . So I

56:02.257 --> 56:04.201
think I can account for everything

56:04.201 --> 56:06.423
Robert said by saying that conscious uh

56:06.423 --> 56:08.534
uh experiences led to the creation of

56:08.534 --> 56:10.534
the knowledge which allowed them to

56:10.534 --> 56:12.757
respond later that I'd seen that versus

56:12.757 --> 56:14.701
not seeing that even though it's a

56:14.701 --> 56:16.868
category that wasn't explicitly called

56:16.868 --> 56:18.590
out as what , what it was they

56:18.590 --> 56:20.812
perceived . So I think we're , we're on

56:20.812 --> 56:23.034
a good path to sort of clean this up is

56:23.034 --> 56:25.257
what my big point and , and uh Burt put

56:25.257 --> 56:24.905
something in the chat for people who

56:24.915 --> 56:27.082
didn't see it about the explainability

56:27.082 --> 56:29.760
over the path . I was just gonna say ,

56:29.770 --> 56:32.290
um , just real quickly . Um I think

56:32.300 --> 56:34.300
there's other paradigms of implicit

56:34.300 --> 56:37.840
learning , uh that are not so easily

56:37.850 --> 56:40.830
dissected the way you did where people ,

56:40.840 --> 56:42.729
you know , just have no conscious

56:42.729 --> 56:44.840
knowledge at all of what's going on .

56:44.840 --> 56:46.451
And yet they pick up on very

56:46.451 --> 56:48.562
complicated cues and all and they can

56:48.562 --> 56:50.729
respond to them . But they consciously

56:50.729 --> 56:52.840
have , they have no idea what they're

56:52.840 --> 56:55.007
doing . But I agree with you . There's

56:55.007 --> 56:54.750
so much different definitions of

56:54.760 --> 56:56.870
consciousness is when you're doing

56:56.879 --> 56:58.712
unconscious processing intuitive

56:58.712 --> 57:00.768
cognition , let's say that's not the

57:00.768 --> 57:02.879
same as when you're asleep at night .

57:03.449 --> 57:05.449
So right there , I told you those ,

57:05.449 --> 57:07.671
they're fundamentally different because

57:07.671 --> 57:09.560
one is actually processing things

57:09.560 --> 57:11.560
you're not aware of the when you're

57:11.560 --> 57:13.727
asleep . So to me , I agree with you ,

57:13.727 --> 57:15.782
but I can't imagine how you're gonna

57:15.782 --> 57:17.727
really clean this up very far . It

57:17.727 --> 57:21.280
seems really messy . We got it , we got

57:21.379 --> 57:23.490
the time we get you the Nobel Prize ,

57:23.490 --> 57:25.712
we'll have it all clean . So we'll pass

57:25.712 --> 57:27.899
through the Nobel . But I remember

57:28.010 --> 57:30.510
multiple times hanging out with a dear

57:30.520 --> 57:34.340
buddy of mine , Zen and Felician and he

57:34.350 --> 57:37.219
and I always love the fact that

57:37.659 --> 57:41.290
self-aware is a wonderful way to

57:41.439 --> 57:44.149
color different ways we talk about

57:44.159 --> 57:47.909
attending to something or not

57:47.919 --> 57:49.752
attending , but it's still being

57:49.752 --> 57:53.479
attended to . And in that

57:53.850 --> 57:57.820
range from almost zero Asymptote

57:58.050 --> 58:00.979
all the way out to fully uh full

58:00.989 --> 58:04.239
bandwidth attention . It's still being

58:04.250 --> 58:06.909
attended to . We just don't realize it

58:06.919 --> 58:09.590
in the way we like to talk about it as

58:09.600 --> 58:13.439
humans or as cognitive psychologists ,

58:13.939 --> 58:17.189
I wear two hats . One of as uh

58:17.739 --> 58:20.030
many call it computer science . I would

58:20.040 --> 58:23.919
like to claim of it should be

58:23.929 --> 58:27.229
computing science . And I also

58:27.479 --> 58:30.199
did my other part of my phd in

58:30.209 --> 58:33.820
cognitive side . But I would

58:33.830 --> 58:37.590
argue we could clean this up by maybe

58:37.600 --> 58:40.600
thinking it this way . It's all in

58:40.610 --> 58:43.340
there . We just don't , we're not fully

58:43.350 --> 58:46.679
aware of it at the moment of it going

58:46.689 --> 58:49.350
through what's really being attended to .

58:49.500 --> 58:53.219
But nonetheless , we seem to learn its

58:53.229 --> 58:56.060
knowledge , new knowledge , but it's at

58:56.070 --> 58:58.379
a level that we don't see on the radar

58:58.389 --> 59:01.320
screen as a human normally does , but

59:01.330 --> 59:03.110
it's still happening within the

59:03.120 --> 59:05.510
chemistry , Kevin , within the

59:05.520 --> 59:08.290
chemistry of the human brain . It's

59:08.300 --> 59:11.669
still being encoded and all of a sudden

59:11.939 --> 59:14.209
we become aware of it either because we

59:14.219 --> 59:17.580
wake up or somehow it comes up to the

59:17.590 --> 59:20.340
surface a bit more and bang would go .

59:20.350 --> 59:22.489
Oh , now I see how to solve it . No ,

59:22.500 --> 59:24.556
you already have solved it . It just

59:24.556 --> 59:28.280
didn't register fully yet as what we

59:28.290 --> 59:31.020
call self aware in the way of humans ,

59:31.030 --> 59:33.570
think about it . But I really think the

59:33.580 --> 59:36.729
machines are working hard to encode it

59:36.739 --> 59:39.520
at a much lower level . Nonetheless ,

59:39.550 --> 59:43.090
thus , nonetheless , Chia is all

59:43.100 --> 59:46.360
throughout the brain . Not just the

59:46.370 --> 59:48.560
attended levels over .

59:49.709 --> 59:52.820
Mm . Yeah . Let's start there next week .

59:52.830 --> 59:55.052
There's too much to unpack there . Uh ,

59:55.052 --> 59:57.530
it's one come back and unpack it

59:57.540 --> 59:59.800
sometime . Yeah . Yeah . So I think

59:59.810 --> 01:00:01.866
we'll start at this slide and set up

01:00:01.866 --> 01:00:03.921
that tension . Uh But Robert maybe a

01:00:03.921 --> 01:00:06.032
final thought because your name is on

01:00:06.032 --> 01:00:08.088
the line or maybe we could just pick

01:00:08.088 --> 01:00:10.032
this up next week because it's 102

01:00:10.032 --> 01:00:12.399
Easter too . Watch Sean . Yeah .

01:00:13.610 --> 01:00:15.777
Sorry . All right , colleagues . Let's

01:00:15.777 --> 01:00:17.777
cut this off for today . We'll pick

01:00:17.777 --> 01:00:20.360
this up from here and then , um we'll

01:00:20.370 --> 01:00:24.040
spend some time with Kane and bet next

01:00:24.050 --> 01:00:25.939
week to talk about the flexible

01:00:25.949 --> 01:00:29.379
behaviors that we need to be able to

01:00:29.389 --> 01:00:33.229
function in this uh uh a two ad

01:00:33.239 --> 01:00:36.090
environment or DDIL is uh the new

01:00:36.100 --> 01:00:38.156
phrase , I think whatever Scott said

01:00:38.156 --> 01:00:40.350
earlier . So , colleagues , uh this is

01:00:40.360 --> 01:00:42.810
great . Um And I'll see you all next

01:00:42.820 --> 01:00:45.169
week . See you , buddy .